Printers and Self Distro, any advice? Options

[ChadStrohl]

Hey all. I'm going two ways with this. First, I'd like to see if anybody has any info they are willing to share. I'm doing my own research as well but am looking for outside opinion.

The first area of concern is printers. The obvious two ends of the spectrum is POD and high print runs with costs running too high to distribute through major distribution channels and the second being too big a gamble for (I'm guessing) 99% of the indie market. Is there an in between. Modest price, lower volume, and at a price point that make sense in the delicate balance of my money, the retailer, the ditributor, and the customer? I've noticed some mention of China in these forums. Is there a "ancient secret" there?

The second area is the ditribution itself. Does anybody have any experience with self ditribution through... say local or regional retailers? And if so, what is the general practice of such an undertaking... consignment? discounts? promotions? Are ISBN's or ISSN's necessary? etc.

The information I get serves two purposes. One, it assists in my development of a business model that I can gear toward my needs, and two, it is information that I will dissect and add to an article I am writing on the nuts and bolts of independant creation (currently at about 20,000 words and counting) based on my own research, pitfalls, and assumptions.

Replies here are fine, or you can email me at strohl_chad@hotmail.com.

Thank you.

[Gonzogoose]

Chad, I'm replying on the quick so I'm not going into detail, and besides, I figure more knowledgeable folk can fill in the gaps more eloquently.

As for ISBN/ISSN, Diamond requires them and so does Amazon. Beyond that, I could be wrong, but I don't think they're necessary. They may be for bookstores, not sure, but not for comic shops.

I've had limited dealings with local/regional shops, and some of them told me they'd only carry my book if it came out through Diamond. Others bought them from me at 50% of cover price. Others may work on consignment, but they would probably still only pay you 50%.

There are printers overseas, I'm told, that have really good prices, but you still have to order larger quantities than most indie folk can afford. If there are printers in between huge print runs and POD, I'm not personally aware of them.

[ChadStrohl]

Thanks Brant. Even with low detail, that's helpful info.

[Cary]

Ok I'll give ya what I know Chad, hope it helps!

To get into ANY brick and mortar bookstore, Diamond, Amazon, pretty much anyone withing the mass distribution chain for books and periodicals, you need ISBN 13 numbers and barcodes. From my research you need a special barcode called the EAN barcode, rather than the more common UPC. Looks the same, but it's not. EANs include the ISBN number and the pricing most of the time, though you can insert a "null" code and leave out the price if you want. ISBN numbers are purchased from Bowker, and are...fairly reasonable. I bought ten for $250. Seems a little steep, but in the grand scheme of things, you gotta have them so you might as well pony up. I haven't bought the barcodes themselves yet. They're another 20 bucks a pop. I am exploring options on that and If I can set up to make my own that's what I'm going to do. We'll see how that goes in the next month or so.

Anyway, once you decide what block of ISBN number you want, 1, 10, 100, or 1000 you apply, pay, they send you your numbers and you're good. Once you assign your numbers to a product you need to go register that product with them and give them all the info on it so they can put it in the system. This allows any book store in the country to scan your barcode and get pricing, ordering, and bio information. Nice!

Now then, printing. I've gotten a couple of quotes from China, most often from a company called Regent. They print a number of mid level Indy stuff and they have a pretty good rep. They have excellent quality from what I've seen. The two biggest problems with them are: 1. lead time. You aren't getting books out of them for a good two months from the time you order. So, you need to have your schedule adjusted accordingly and don't count on any sort of rush job. They actually ship the comics to you by BOAT. So there you go. and 2. Quantity. If you think you get a price drop with North American printers on larger quantity orders you ain't seen nothing yet. But to get the real gold, you have to go in excess of 5000 units, and that's rough for most Indy creators I know, especially starting out. They seem really nice, very friendly and quick to respond to email, so I can see no reason not to use them but for the issues stated above. I've seriously considered them for a trade printing...but I can't imagine having to explain to my wife why our spare bedroom is filled to bursting with boxes of the trade!

So that's what I have on all that. If you need anything else or whatever, let me know and I'll answer as best I can.

[Gonzogoose]

Good to know on the ISBN and bar codes, Cary, I wasn't aware the requirement was that deep.

[Cary]

Good to know on the ISBN and bar codes, Cary, I wasn't aware the requirement was that deep.

Yeah it's one of those things that for whatever reason they don't really get info out there on...which kinda blows my mind. I mean you've got lots of people self publishing and trying to get books to a larger market, you'd think they would target those people with the info they need to actually get it done! I don't know. Maybe it's one of those things where if you're serious enough and ready you discover the info, kinda like buried treasure. Weird tho.

Where I got into all this was via Borders, Barnes and Nobles, and Amazon. Amazon seems like a perfect fit for me, because it's online and it's per order shipping where I can list it as temporarily out of stock if I need to in order to restock. With the major chain retailers like Borders, B&N, and Booksamillion they want to place a static order, have those books shipped to them all at once, and then reorder if the demand requires it. That doesn't suck, but consider an example Matt Nastos ran into. He went to Borders, got them to bite, and then got a purchase order for enough books to hammer him with an $18,000 dollar printing bill! Now certainly he stands to get that money back at least double depending on the discounts they require, usually 50%, but still. Most Indy guys can't afford to shell out that kind of cash let alone wait the 90 days it takes to get paid back on that PO.

With those booksellers you also deal with returns, which is another headache. Small, but ever present. With Amazon, it's point of sale, per order, and it's out the door and sold. It's a beautiful thing. But, you still have to comply with the ISBN fun, barcodes and all the rest. So for me, that's a middle of the road type thing, best of both worlds. And as we've seen they're kicking the ass of the brick and mortar stores a little more every year as they add special features that folks like. What I may explore is Borders or B&N online only which would give me inroads into those stores without the big outlay print bill up front. We'll see how it goes.

[ChadStrohl]

Thanks Cary. Just thinking aloud here, but has anybody considered getting a bunch of indie creators together when purchasing ISBN's or is that how the "publisher information" tag in an ISBN prevents that type of consolidation?

[Cary]

Thanks Cary. Just thinking aloud here, but has anybody considered getting a bunch of indie creators together when purchasing ISBN's or is that how the "publisher information" tag in an ISBN prevents that type of consolidation?

Honestly, I haven't, and I'm really not sure if it would work or not because of how all that works. From the way my application read, and the subsequent emails they sent me with regard to that, ISBNs aren't transferable, which would in theory preclude any sort of group buy in since they all have to ultimately be registered to one entity.

From the FAQ: "Once an ISBN publisher prefix and associated block of numbers has been assigned to a publisher by the ISBN Agency, the publisher can assign ISBNs to publications it holds publishing rights to. However, after the ISBN Agency assigns ISBNs to a publisher, that publisher cannot resell, re-assign, transfer, or split its list of ISBNs among other publishers. These guidelines have long been established to ensure the veracity, accuracy and continued utility of the international ISBN standard."

So that, sadly, seems undoable. The only option to get around it would be something on the order of a all encompassing mother publisher. Not unthinkable...but logistically nightmarish.

This post has been edited by Cary: Apr 30 2010, 08:38 AM

[ChadStrohl]

Hmmm. A socialist system for indy publishers.

[LurkD]

Actually, it sounds a lot like Image comics. Many 'independent' creators, each doing their own thing, and all publishing under one master publisher.

[Cary]

Yeah...not impossible, but it would take some serious focus and vision to say the least, especially to avoid the pitfalls Image dealt with in the early days.

[Tim Tilley]

Thanks for the information Cary, I think this thread should be a sticky topic but that's just me.

This post has been edited by Tim Tilley: May 2 2010, 03:40 PM

[LurkD]

Would it be possible, I wonder, to start off with just one title consisting of an anthology, with six to eight page installments of each contributor's story, and as the titles continue and become popular, they get split off into their own book and are replaced with new stories from new creators?

[Cary]

Would it be possible, I wonder, to start off with just one title consisting of an anthology, with six to eight page installments of each contributor's story, and as the titles continue and become popular, they get split off into their own book and are replaced with new stories from new creators?

It certainly would, but comic book fans historically don't support the anthology format. I'd say part of that is the trend of most anthologies to start out really strong and then taper off as they struggle to maintain the same quality standards, publication schedule, and creator presence. It's just infinitely harder to juggle 4 or 5 teams of creators on a regular basis than it is one creative team. I have considered putting together an annual trade paperback version of an anthology, but I really haven't take it any further than the idea stage. If the interest were there...I might look at it deeper.

[LurkD]

One potential solution would be to just run the anthology quarterly, and let the individual spin-off titles go bi-monthly to find their own audience, and give the creators a better chance at maintaining a schedule. Once a core set of titles is established, the anthology could then be put on hiatus and only brought back for the occasional "story that doesn't go anywhere else" and the little-known "let's try something new." And then later, when creators have gotten in the groove of production, the titles can reasonably attempt a monthly schedule.

While few here show significant interest in the genre(thought there is some), the longest running anthropomorphic title is Furrlough, published by Radio Comix. Close to twenty years in publication, and going strong. It's possible it's not the format, but the subject matter the readers are not warming to. Superhero anthologies have been out of vogue since the early '60's, but many anthologies for slice of life, the aforementioned anthropomorphic, and science-fiction/fantasy adventure have done well over the years.

I'm just tossing ideas at the wall, here. Feel free to decide for yourself if any of them stick.

[Cary]

I do like the idea of the quarterly trade, especially if it's in the perfect bound production model where it would be acceptable for sale at larger store chains and such. I think once you reach a wider audience, your sales potential is significantly increased. Maybe like a Heavy Metal only in a perfect bound format you know? Might work.

[ChadStrohl]

Interesting that this subject is being brought up here. I've had an idea swirling around for a little while now and have tossed it around to some people and it's gotten some interest (at least in concept). I don't know that a public forum is best for the discussion since it can get a little off track, but I'm willing to share the concept with anybody interested to email me at strohl_chad@hotmail.com.

I'm especially interested in coordinating with anybody that has more small press publishing clout than I do and has a good grasp of how to get a book out into the world (hint... Cary).

I will say that it fits right along with what is being discussed here, just haven't created a solid plan.

[Gonzogoose]

This is kind of related to the topic, but I thought it was interesting to note that Ka-Blam now offers hardcover printing:

http://ka-blam.com/printing/front/?p=98