Nudity and swearing?, Nudity and swearing? Options

[Andrew Salmon]

On the Deadwood front, I was a fan of the show as well.

But, that said, I found the profanity very distracting at times. Sure, they were rough people in a rough place but the dialogue seemed structured to wallow in the F-word.

And, in my opinion, the show didn't need it. It was very well written, very well acted, and had great production values. It seemed to me that they needed a hook for the show for "water cooler promotion" and decided that an inordinate amount of profanity would get people talking: "Hey, did you see that western where they curse like bastards!" sort of thing. And the show was better than that.

Of course, maybe they needed that kind of buzz to stay on the air. But that's economics, not art. Remember what happened to the Clone Saga in Spider-Man when the bean counters took over. Yikes!

So profanity for profanity's sake... No.
But, like others have said, if the story calls for it plus any explicit content... fine.

So long as they are to serve the story not just for shock value.

[John Wilson]

My approach to this is very simple. The same bar I use with all "adult fare".

If you can tell the same story effectively without the more salacious elements and those elements do nothing but enhance the piece, then it is valid. If you cannot, then the piece is gratuitous.

[LurkD]

The good thing about doing an Indy book ...

snip

But, but, if you do an Indy book, you're going to get sued by George Lucas!

[John Wilson]

But, but, if you do an Indy book, you're going to get sued by George Lucas!

BWA HA HA!

[Mike_W]

Anyone see AVATAR yet . . . I couldn't help but think of this string while I was watching parts of it . . . seems like there were 3 or 4 swear words just thrown in for the heck of it . . . I loved the movie and don't really think it would of lost anything if i didn't hear a marine say "shit" a few times??

Anyone else think this?

-mike
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DV42Ev-s8D0

[G-Man]

I saw the movie...and loved it. Surprised nobody else has mentioned it yet in the forum. I've been meaning to start a post about it but just haven't gotten around to doing it.

Personally if Marines didn't swear...I would find that more unbelievable than anything else that I saw in that film. (unbelievable in a good way...movie was great!)

[Lisa Moore]

I saw Avatar and also really enjoyed it. I had no idea what the movie was about going into it I hadn't even watched a trailer for it. I was quite surprised by how much I liked it, it was gorgeous for one and really just a great story. I honestly didn't even notice the swearing in this one.

[Mike Luoma]

Just saw this thread again...

My new comic has both nudity AND swearing. And thought balloons. LOTS and LOTS of thought balloons. We see into the characters' thoughts, and they're not always pretty. There are many F-bombs, spoken and unspoken. I don't find it gratuitous, I find it builds into the book the feeling of real life. But I also clearly mark the book for mature audiences 17+.

It's Everybody Lies (I posted about it elsewhere).

I've used a few expletives sparingly in comics before. Think it depends on the project. On the flipside, for example, in converting my novel Vatican Assassin to a comic book, it felt more correct to leave the expletives from the novel out of the comic.

People talk with expletives all the time. I've worked in some radio stations where EVERYONE talked like sailors off the air, while of course remaining "clean" on the air. Seems to me automatically censoring your language both limits your storytelling possibilities and ignores reality.

[Nik Havert / Pic...]

I have written and self-published books rating from PG to X. If I get the idea, I'll write it. I agree with earlier posters in that sex and violence must serve the story. In my experience, writing sex scenes isn't much different from writing action scenes. Both types of scenes need to have a point and should reveal something about the characters - even if it's just what sex positions they enjoy.

Someone earlier wrote that, if you can take out the sex and still have a cohesive story, then you're fine. I agree. However, if you're writing erotica then the objective is to turn people on while telling a good story. You can't write erotica without sex, or at least eroticism.

And I've had good sales of my adult books. Sometimes the wackier the book, the better it sells - at least in my experience.

If you want to put out an adult comic, by all means do so. I don't think we have enough. Stick to your guns.

[Ron Fortier]

As we don't have the pay-cable networks, never saw DEADWOOD, which still bugs me even now. I have got to put that series on my Christmas list and maybe Santa will come through for me. Please, please, please. I'll be a good boy, I promise.

[BPurg]

I think it can also be argued that having a more mature ratting to your story can also flag your ability to think/write/draw creatively.

Nothing takes away from a story faster than flashy over the top scene of blood, sex, nudity and controversial themes (like the over used abused child, female rape and other such topics) that fall flat due to no creativity. It shows very painfully that the person has no idea what it is they are writing about or drawing.

What I really really hate- is the fence riders. They will show a tit here and there or a hint of some ass but when it comes to put out, you get censored cock tease- and not the good kind you come back for. I'm all for PG/PG-13 ratings but if you are going to show people (girls) with shred cloths and keep a censor scrap on three places...you bore me, you're art sucks and your writing leaves me cold. Either go all the way- or pull it back to PG-13. There are plenty of PG/PG-13 comics I've seen that have had nudity parts and they were 'censored' but not annoying, not taking away from the story or art- in fact there are some cases it was actually enhanced.


As for cursing/swear words......well.....sum it up I don't read Steven King because the few times I tried I got board out of my mind because he used more profanity than plot in my opinion.

Profanity used to express emotion, character or an eventful moment has a time and place. Profanity for shock value only...very distracting. We are FAR past the times when profanity could ride on shock effect alone.

This post has been edited by BPurg: Mar 24 2011, 01:44 PM

[spearcarrier]

I think it can also be argued that having a more mature ratting to your story can also flag your ability to think/write/draw creatively.

Yeah, I know I used to complain that Heavenly Bride getting rated that way made it very difficult for me to do anything... but the truth is it set me free.

Before someone had a fit because omigawd I showed a set of mammary glands, I was struggling with that dividing line. When it got rated, that set a lot of the story free because I suddenly had to stop worrying about a younger audience that didn't belong there in the first place. Yes, it did put it into a niche that makes it verrry difficult to promote, because of the stereotyping with manga styled things vs. nudity and erotic situations, but that happens with all my stuff so I'm used to it. I just don't write mainstream things. Moving along.

Nowadays I struggle with trying to decide how far is too far and just what is good for the story and isn't. Which is what I should have had trouble with in the first place, not worrying what a bunch of old nannies would think is too mature. It's mature. Okay. Moving along. Glad someone else said it for me to me. Wish they hadn't shunned it in the process... because apparently mature and romance can't combine... but don't get me started on THAT rant.

I'm with you on the whole excessive cursing thing. My father taught me every curse word I knew by the time I was in high school, and I hated the Catcher in the Rye for that very reason. Hated hated still hate it.

[tbrotomo]

Hey Mike, this is such an interesting and relevant topic that really never gets old because it's ALWAYS something a writer has to consider (not being sarcastic, I mean it).

I go back and forth over how far I want to go, personally. There's so many different ways to look at it, it really depends on the story that you want to tell, as Tyler mentioned earlier (Tyler is super smart and usually right about everything, which I'm also not being sarcastic about).

I also struggle with the fact that I'm pretty religious which adds a whole other dimension to it, so when I'm writing something that is somewhat "sinful", am I actually sinning by propagating that behavior in my story? And where do I draw the line if it is? I mean as a superhero comic, I have to have some action and violence at least, certainly. And I'm definitely not condoning murder from the villains who are out there throwing cars. So does is showing the characters doing something sexy or swearing any different? It's really tough to answer, and I try to just write the story where it wants to go and not worry about it too much. Otherwise I'd never get anything done. That said, I wrote a short story (prose, not comic) that I'm never going to show to anyone because I'm ashamed of how blasphemous it is.

So my own personal decision is that I'll stay at a PG-13 level. I'm going to bleep out swearing, even though that's kinda ridiculous, but the characters will talk as they talk to me in my head (they're coming to take me away!). I kinda think the $#&%!!! is a staple of comic books anyway

In terms of whether it will hurt or help your readership to have content like this, I think your audience will come for the story and these peripheral things will influence a couple people, but not the majority of potential readers. I recently dealt with this as well. I had a page on my web comic that highlighted a panel of my main character in a bra, a little bit gratuitous, sure, but it made sense within the story and I think works well in the context of a superhero comic (not to mention looks hot, props to Ren McKenzie, artist). I received a few comments and a nasty email about it, but at exactly the same time, my readership DOUBLED that week. I don't know if it's a coincidence, if "controversy" drove it, or if people just liked to see a drawing of a cute girl in a bra, but I've learned you have to take criticisms and compliments with a grain of salt.

In the end, it's up to you. Hope some of my ramblings helped.

[ChadStrohl]

Had a random thought as I read the newer posts...

Nudity and/or swearing doesn't add any level of realism any more than having tall skyscrapers, barren deserts, or wet water. It really comes down the most comfortable way to establish the writer/reader relationship. If a writer is uncomfortable using certain words in everyday life, then I have a feeling that is going to show through in the writing almost as much as a writer trying to convey astrophysics without knowing much about it. If the writer has established that connection with the reader, then the use of or lack of nudity or swearing won't even register in the reader's mind.

Also... what is realistic anyway? We write stories were people fly, shoot energy beams, wander fantastic worlds, fight monsters, etc. Does a boob shot or the drop of an F bomb make those stories any more believable? I'm assuming the character's in our stories go to the bathroom, eat a bowl of cereal while watching infomercials, and do their laundry, but those "realistic" things aren't necessary to tell a good story.

[MichaelMayne]

Chad, what you just said about the writer's comfortability with the language he's writing seems right on.

Part of writing for narrative anyway is being succinct. Writers always need to convey the dialog in a way that not only gives unique voice to each character, but ultimately serves the story. If swearing is just thrown in to fill up word balloons, a point is being missed—except in the cases where characters' rambling words ARE the point, obviously.

I also agree with the comparison of action scenes to sex scenes. The way I see it, punchy-kicky, car-chasing, weapon-play action is akin to innuendo and sexual tension-building in a visual story. On the other end of the spectrum, buckets of blood and guts and visceral action scenes are relative to consummative love scenes, romantic, erotic or just plain visceral in their own right.
You just have to find a balance, and that means treating each topic with the same level of maturity as the other, in my opinion.
i.e. It's probably not a good idea to have zany, slapstick violence with little to no severity and then at the end of the issue graphically depict a raucous orgy. You're going to confuse readers, and potentially lose them. Unless, again, you're aim is to focus on the juxtaposition or something like that. But you're still probably going to lose readers. =)


From my own perspective...
In Bonnie Lass, I have some mild profanities. All stuff that could be heard in a PG movie, plus a few choice words that simply get interrupted by the action. I do have an instance or two of "frak" or something like that, just to widen the characters' salty vernacular a bit (they're sea-faring adventurers, after all) while keeping from using any actually vulgar swearing. The story itself is supposed to be a fun romp for those that want a break from the dark moody stuff that's still got a noticeable hold on a large part of the market, so I didn't want to bog down the script with unfitting vulgarity. That alone brings an angry, somewhat depressing vibe that I didn't want permeating throughout the whole story.

Vulgarity. There's a difference between "harsh language" and vulgarity. It should be given that each character should have a unique voice—just as such I think each story should have its own unique voice. I can stick to mild profanity and convey that my characters are angry, shocked or otherwise excited without crossing the threshold into stinging vulgarity. Mind you, that's just my mindset for working on Bonnie Lass—on a more serious or just more mature story, I'd take a smart yet broader approach to the kinds of language the characters might use. It's all relative to what the tone of your story and how the dialog works with it.

And sex/nudity... I'm not bashful about saying that Bonnie Lass has its healthy share of cheeky fanservice. The character started off as a tongue-in-check pastiche of the typical action girl, before I got attached to her persona and started writing more depth into the character. But in keeping with the balance system I mentioned earlier, since most of the violent conflict in the story plays off of the kineticism rather than gore (just a few instances of blood, just enough to add extra weight to certain circumstances), the sexuality is limited to silly titillation which the characters themselves are aware of within the context of the story.

Again, it's all relative and contextual.

I think that wraps up a nice overview of my thoughts on the matter, at least on the low frequency end of the gamut.

[ART BOWSHIER]

What has always bothered me about excess anything in comics is that it is often a subterfuge to disguise a true lack of story-telling talent. Think about a minute. How many times have you picked up a so called indy-adult book to find it over filled with gratuitous sex and violence and absolutely no cohesion in regards to plotting and story-telling.
So you make an honest critique, and immediately the creator deflects it with, "Ah, you're just a naive wimp who doesn't understand adult fare."
Which, my friends is pure BS.
Rule number one, serve your story. If it requires sex, violence, cussing, whatever, fine...but don't make those things the be all, end all.
We can still smell a phony under all that "adult" camouflage.

I agree it's nt nessecary. If you can't say it to your mom or in churh without a red face then why do it at all? If someone wants porn they an buy a magaine of photos or a dvd.Why would someone want to see Popeye and Oliveoyl,or betty bbbbboop and Bosco the clown doing a money shot?

[Percival Constan...]

Depends on the story. In my second book, Chasing the Dragon, there's a lot of profanity and violence, but the book was intended to be a hardcore revenge tale, so I felt it fit. My latest book, The Myth Hunter, is more aimed at a general audience and so while there may be a swear word dropped in here and there, it's not all over the place and I thought the times when I did use them were appropriate for the situation.

The important thing is to be honest to your story and be consistent with your usage. During Marvel's Siege event, I remember a panel where the Sentry tore Ares in half -- and it was a full spread image, with guts and bones and everything. That was surprising enough in its own right, but what surprised me even more is that curse words were still being written as @#$%. Took me out of the story even more because of the lack of consistency -- graphic violence is okay but the types of swears you'd hear in a PG-13 movie aren't?

But yes, as others have said, cursing, sex and violence do not mean mature.

This post has been edited by Percival Constantine: Oct 8 2011, 05:52 PM

[captain_spectre]

Also one thing I haven't heard here yet is, What about the characters? Do the characters curse as an outlet? Some do, some don't.
One thing, I am a very very beginning writer so I sure don't know my rear end from a hole in the ground. I also grew up in a small West Texas oilfield town, and worked over 17 years in the oil field, so I have seen or rather heard it all. I have seen some of the roughest looking guys in the world not ever say a word out of line. Then I have seen people that every other word was F----.
So what about the characters? I have one that would udder a string or words to make the angels blush, and one that wouldn't.

So, I like all of you, would say, write the story, make the characters live, breathe, and talk like they were created to speak. Then put the rating on the book.

[G-Man]

Well said.