One more time...for the cheap seats! Options

[wwi3313]

I know we've tread this subject time and again, often with both sides seeming to reach a mutual point of understanding, with only a few collapses here and there, but...this payment of artists thing has taken a new twist!

So, I'm in the midst of a HUGE (and possibly outrageous) campaign to get 33 projects produced this year. Obviously, I'm not going to be able to illustrate all those myself, so I'll need to hire a few esteemed artists to help me out! I just contacted one for a particular job and offered him the following: $150-200 cash, 20 copies of a sketchbook (with sketchcover for him to use at shows) and 20-50 prints. Oh...and the job is 7pgs. ONLY. 7. PAGES. And the guy turned it down, politely saying that his page rate is at least $85 a page for pencils. Now, you guys might be saying, "Vic -- you just didn't offer enough and he passed -- LET IT GO!" But, I'm here to suggest that that's not true -- I actually offered more than that and he just didn't see it!

First off I offered, at minimum, $150 -- that's an initial rate of just over $21 per page...QUITE low in comparison, I agree...but let's keep going. Then it's 20 copies of a sketchbook -- most of those are $15-20 a pop with the artist doing commission pieces on them, but I'm only factoring at the ripe rate of $10 -- that adds an additional $200 to the pot, for a new page rate of...$50 per page! More than twice the initial fee and merely $35 off of his "regular rate." And then I went for the prints. Again, staking at the min, that's 20 prints -- which I wasn't gonna demand be of OUR project, but of what ever pieces he wanted (I'm trying to show I'm investing in him as an artist and not just what he'll do for me!) -- we all know that prints at shows have a range of up to $10ea and can snatch a group fee of 3 for $20 EASILY! That's another $140 added to the pot, which kicks up his page rate to...$70. Just $15 shy of what he claimed was his page rate. Would YOU pass on a job for a shortage of $15?

"But wait Vic, that's a loss of $15 seven times! That's like a whole 'nother hundred bucks!" When you're right, you're right...that would short him about $105. But...that was just at the minimum amounts. If he got the max, it'd factor to $105 A PAGE (weird how that amount just popped again, no?)! Heck, he could've been savvy and said, give me 35 prints and we'll call it good...because at 35 prints, it adds to...about $85. I feel like the bitter husband whose trying to make compromise, but the wife just won't budge! What are your thoughts, my fellows? Am I barking up the wrong tree trying to pad my offers, or did I just stumble on to someone who had the wrong Vantage point of consideration?

[Mutant_Cactus]

I think that the issue is that you contacted an artist to commission them to do work. Though it may be disappointing, there was nothing wrong with his response. It all depends on his priorities and goals. He obviously wants to do his end of the work, be paid for it and move on to the next commissioned project.

I agree with you that the artist in question could gain more in the long run. Your agreement with Mutant Cactus is based off that understanding. We sell 8 Bit buttons, at pay out time you can make a quick buck, or flip your "payment" into a much larger monetary gain. It's smart. The catch is that you have to do extra work to make that additional profit. Not many people are willing to do the extra work to make the extra cash. It's too easy to just get paid and move on.

Having known you for 20+ years, I can confidently say that this artist is someone that you personally do not want to work with. I'd say you were simply barking up the wrong tree. There are tons of artists out there. I'd recommend finding someone that is "hungry" and willing to put in the extra work to be more than just a commissioned artist. You can find someone that is willing to take an interest in helping grow the product, market their name as well as your name and build a relationship with you and V:IP that is beyond the Artist for Hire relationship.



This post has been edited by Mutant_Cactus: Jan 7 2012, 08:25 AM

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[Fred Lang]

I can't pay rent with sketchbooks and prints. ;-)

Getting paid in some commodity just ensures that I have to now sell that commodity to eventually make my money for illustrating the book in the first place.

I can't see into the brain of whoever you asked to do the art, but you asked for another point of view, so...there ya go.

[wwi3313]

I can't pay rent with sketchbooks and prints. ;-)

Getting paid in some commodity just ensures that I have to now sell that commodity to eventually make my money for illustrating the book in the first place.

I can't see into the brain of whoever you asked to do the art, but you asked for another point of view, so...there ya go.

But therein lies the underlying problem that "we" publishers have with the demanding artist -- pages don't equal a book. Artist view their effort/artwork as a commodity of the same fashion -- once we receive it, there's more work for us to do before we get what we intended out of it. That's a perspective that invokes a VERY negative persona on behalf of artists!

[Greg G.]

Don't take this wrong, but you're a small publisher and you offered this guy a chance to get his work out there within reason for your size.

If he's getting $85 a page, fine he can keep getting $85 a page on other jobs.

If he gets $85 a page in his imagination while serving frapuccinos at Starbucks for minimum wage; then that's his problem.

Falling on my limited experience, in 2000 I got paid $15 a page for pencilled, inked, lettered pages by a small press publisher. I got my foot in a door and I got paid on top of my day job.

Getting started out is why commercial artists need to hold onto a day job.

[Fred Lang]

But therein lies the underlying problem that "we" publishers have with the demanding artist -- pages don't equal a book. Artist view their effort/artwork as a commodity of the same fashion -- once we receive it, there's more work for us to do before we get what we intended out of it. That's a perspective that invokes a VERY negative persona on behalf of artists!

I call this the "Magic Bean Theory".

Here's your scenario as I understand it:

You have created an idea. You wrote it, you are the reason the story exists. You will print it, sell it, and if it is wildly successful, you will own the rights to it. When Will Smith options one of your stories, that's all you.

To get to that point (I'm assuming that success is what you're going for, otherwise disregard, because we're no longer talking about a professional job, we're discussing a hobby instead), you need an artist if you can't draw it yourself.

The job of the artist is to illustrate your story to the best of his / her ability and get you the absolute best product you can get within the limits of time and talent.

Once that job is done, it's done. The artist goes on to the next job and does the same thing for the next creator with a story.

Now, what you're saying is that you offered Artist X a certain amount of money per page, and he politely declined. Pretty much end of story, unless you further negotiate more cash for the job or something.

What your extended argument is, however, is that Artist X should have calculated the value of the free prints and free copies of a sketchbook as pay, because those things have potential value--the "Magic Beans". These "Magic Beans" may have some future value that exceeds the artist's page rate, thus to you he is more fully compensated.

That's where I call foul (again--IF we're not talking about the hobbyist level of getting comics printed).

What you do when you bargain with the "Magic Beans" is you put the artist in the place of someone who now, instead of drawing more books for a page rate, has to now arrange for the sale of the sketchbook / prints / Magic Beans in order to reach some imagined cash value.

Now, that said--any artist has the right to accept anything as payment--Magic Beans, cows, geese, shells, a handshake--whatever. Period. Artist X felt that your Magic Beans weren't worth his/her time, and so the market decides that Artist X won't be drawing your books.

That the artist is in a similar position to you because you, as the creator / publisher then have to do more work with the art is a false argument, and here's why:

The art is a fundamental part of getting a comic book made. Without art, it's a short story. You create the story, you write the story, the artist draws the story. Everything before and after the art is done is up to you--because it's yours! You brought the entire process into existence, and you alone will reap the benefits (if any) or losses (if any) of your project. See the difference? You're equating [the art: part of the process of creating comic books] with [compensation for participating in the process of creating comic books] and saying those are the same thing. They are wholly different.

Of course there are steps for you, the creator, after the artist completes his/her work--but those next steps are a fundamental part of the process of making a comic book to begin with! But the artist's job (unless that person is a legitimate co-creator who will reap the same benefits you do) is to execute your story, get paid, then go on to the next neat job. The artist's job is not necessarily to buy into your dream of success for the story, or to accept Magic Beans or risk being called "demanding".

I think that the market worked very well in your case. You offered X for X pages (I happen to think $85/page is pretty high for most of the non-pro work I've seen), and Artist X declined. Now you go and find someone to do them for what you're offering (X rate for X pages + Magic Beans), or you make some other concession (pay more cash, drop the Magic Beans from the deal, draw it yourself, etc. etc etc.). I don't think that, given your scenario, that the artist was being "demanding" by not agreeing with your deal. Artist X, on the other hand, will lose out on whatever he/she would have been paid for your story, and will likely wait a lot longer before someone is ready to pay what Artist X thinks his/her work is worth, but that's Artist X's cross to bear until Artist X lowers his/her prices or somehow connects with someone who will actually pay that per page.

It's pretty straightforward market stuff--most likely not personal at all, at least until you start calling artists who want to get paid with cash "demanding". Then you've moved from "I can't make this deal work because I don't think it's worth it to me to pay $85/ page" to "This artist has a character flaw because he/she won't accept my Magic Beans as payment".

Again, if we're talking hobby-level, disregard entirely.

Whoo! That was long-winded

[wwi3313]

You've made some good points, but there are quite a few things I disagree with you on. I'll whole-heartedly agree that my payment offer was a "magic bean" scenario -- built on potential value...but by that same token, so is the artist's work. Like you said, there's no guarantee of success when publishing comics, so there's no inherent value in any part of it -- even the artwork. The idea of a page rate (which I'm inherently against in the small-press market, btw), speaks only of the potential value that an artist has assumed his work is worth. But would he guarantee I'll make back that investment? Probably not...so his end to me is just as magic beanie as my offer was.

I REALLY don't agree that only the writer/publisher gets the rise or fall of a book, either. Artists get to showcase the work in their portfolios, they get credit for the work when published and use the proof of that experience to not only acquire more work, but possibly increase their rate of pay because of it. That's far from nothing, in my opinion.

I agree that comics ARE a visual narrative medium, which does require pictures. But that doesn't make them more important than the words, because words are the root of the whole process. Without the words of that story, a comic artist has nothing to do. That's symbiosis at its best -- we rely on each other in this collaborative medium and my initial point to all this is why many artists have trouble seeing that and working within it.

To play a little Devil's Ad, do you want us to consider you as uninvested as you've suggested? Because taking that "on to the next one" model that you mentioned, "we" have no reason (nor requirement) to give you more than a paycheck for your work. That's no credit on the book, no comped copies or even use of the pages for your portfolio. If you can't showcase the work you've done previously, what happens to your estimated value? How well can you call for a page rate when you can't show or necessarily prove what you've done before? That's a grim future...but legally plausible...

We're all in the magic bean boat together...we should recognize and act like it. *Great discussion, thus far, Fred!