Marvel Admits to Killing Characters for Money Options

uh-oh, I really should have stayed out of this thread.

Come on Cary? Really dude? "Look back to the last truly original and at least somewhat thought provoking story Marvel put out."

Challenge accepted!

Mike Allred and Peter Milligan's X-force/X-statix
Grant Morrison's New X-men
Brian K Vaughn's Runaways
Greg Pak's Planet Hulk
BKV's original Hood mini series
Mark Waid and Mike Wierengo's Fantastic Four run
Kurt Busiek's entire Avengers run including Avengers Forever
Jim Krueger and Alex Ross's Earth X
Jason Aaron's Ghost Rider

I could keep going on and on here.

I think people are just blindly complaining here as there is plenty of material being put out by the big two that's still not only readable but creative and fun.

Heck Greg Pak and Fred Van lente are still doing it constantly with all their Herc material. Jim McCann is doing it inside of everything he's done with Hawkeye and Mockingbird, Hickman's doing it with Secret Warriors.

I'm going to stop now, I probably shouldn't look back in the thread either, not sure it's a good idea.

Christopher Priest and Black Panther. Joe Kelly/ Gail Simone on Deadpool. Gail Simone on Birds of Prey. Morrison's JLA, Busiek and Perez on Avengers. Mark Waid on Avengers (even if he could not get a steady artist. Thank you Bryan Hitch.) JMS Spider-man before Joe Q stuck his idiotic nose in. JMS Supreme Power. Nightwing Year One.

Yes, for every good story, there has been more than the fair share of bad. But not everything has been bad/ awful. I know Jeph Loeb lost all sense of writing ability sometime after Superman for All Seasons, and is the main culprit nowadays for awful stories, but like I said, not everything has been bad.

Here's a snippet of the article:

In an unprecedented move over the weekend, Marvel Comics basically admitted to killing characters for sales. Now, let’s not delude ourselves into thinking we didn’t know this already but am I the only one surprised it was finally said so plainly? And publicly?

Why would anybody be surprised that Marvel (and DC, for that matter) is run by bottom-liners?

Not to mention, their intent is stated publicly so as to prime the pump for the retaliers to have something to look forward to.

As I've said many times over the last 18 years...one thing Marvel has accomplished is to turn the majority of retail shops into franchise stores.

This post has been edited by Mark Ellis: Feb 23 2011, 06:23 AM

Nobody said they were surprised by the announcement, just that they admitted it. And yeah, they said it to the retailers for that purpose, but they had to know a statement like that would leak out, so why risk it?

As for Eric's post, while I was not a fan of all those he mentioned, he was right in that they were all original, thought provoking and interesting. Which further proves my point that saying Marvel has had no good or original stories in 25 years or more is just absurd.

uh-oh, I really should have stayed out of this thread.

I fully agree with that statement. We're making history!

If you and Brant take time to READ my post, I didn't say nothing had come out in the last 25 years that was any good, I said very little. In fact I said "Certainly there have been small bright spots, like little islands in the sea of junk." I even listed one item off your list, in Planet Hulk. I'd take Fowler a lot more seriously if he'd actually read a tenth of the comics I have, but since that's not the case, and he offers the Clone saga as an example of good story, he's running on pure fumes.

Now again, for the cheap seats, there have been bright spots in Marvel's output in the last 25 years. I'll be the first to admit that, and give them credit where credit is due. I enjoyed the hell out of Kick Ass even, though it's hard to give them credit for the creator owned stuff I'll laud them anyway because it's deserved. However, if you look at the company as a whole the vast majority of what they've foisted on the comic buying public has been utter derivative crap. They're riding the last vestiges of good will and popularity they built up prior to and during the 80s, and getting their press on the back of shock value story lines. And believe me when I tell you I use the term "story" with as much sarcasm as humanly possible. This is completely supported by their statements about killing characters on a regular basis because it's good for business. For those of you that can't figure it out, that's snake oil wrapped up in a new package.

Just because I haven't read some of the comics when you were ten (when I was, what, 4) doesn't mean I haven't read enough to know what I'm talking about, Cary, and I am ever so slightly offended by that statement, bro (well, as offended as I can be when you, of all people, are calling me out on my knowledge. Not like we agree a lot when it comes to comic stories). You act as if I've only read comics from 1995 to present, which simply isn't true. Sure enough, I started going to comic shops and collecting comics in 1989, but I did read some before that, mostly Batman, Iron Man, Firestorm, Spider-Man and Archie, but still. And I have gone back and read some of the classic stories from years prior. So I think I've earned a place at the table so to speak.

As for the Clone Saga, if YOU'd read my posts, bro, you'd know that I said it was a good idea that started off strong before going too far, which is the truth.

But by your definition you've not explained Marvel, you've explained ALL of comics. The majority of stories in ALL of comics, not just in the last 25 years, but much longer, have not been stellar or even good. The bright spots are what make us all fans.

Jabs are all in good fun, but you already know that (in the words of Alberto Del Rio - and yep, that's yet another wrestling reference, deal with it!).

It pretty much covers all entertainment when its stated that there are bright spots amid the junk. Movies are hit and miss. Novels are hit and miss. Video games are hit and miss. The difference is that comics seem to relish the gimmicks that still seem to hold enough sway over the fan base that they are far too comfortable in the doing.

There's a sucker born every minute. But who is to blame when a con is succesful - the con or the conned?

The fact that such a statement was ever made in the first place is an atrocity on so many levels. It turns abstract creativity into a rubber stamped assembly line process that has no soul or depth or feeling. It's frankly disgusting. All it does is turn the comic medium into a pointless freakshow. It's no wonder the majority of the world won't take comics seriously. Why should they?

The saddest thing about it, is that when trust is ruined it takes ten times the effort to get it back.

I wish Marvel (and DC and Darkhorse) the best of luck in finding their way out of the mire. I really do want them to succeed. I just want them to do it with some class, and maybe a dash of dignity.

Very well sad, Chad, very well said.

lol Brant you know I'm playing with you, especially when I use your last name. In reality though I started buying comics new when I was 4, in 1972. At the same time I inherited several huge dust laden boxes of Silver Age comics from my uncle, who had bought them new, which is what got me interested in the Silver age, and honestly the DC universe as a whole. Anyway, history lesson over.

And yeah, one can make a case for comics as a whole resting on their laurels, at least at the Big Two. I'll agree with that, but I think Marvel is a far worse offender over the last 25 years than DC is, and running away with the title over the last decade. I hate it that both of them seem afflicted with the crossover and event madness, but at least the stuff DC is doing seems to matter, whereas Marvel is bouncing right back to their starting point like nothing ever happened. Another thing that I think puts DC over Marvel is planning. DC has stories and events plotted out WAY in advance. We heard rumblings of this upcoming Flashpoint event 3 years ago in Chicago. Good or bad, prefer it or not, at least there's a vision there. With Marvel they just seem to be throwing dirty underwear at the wall to see if any of it will stick.

I know, man, same here on the playing with ya.

I still have to disagree, though. I think DC's had their game on for the past 5 years top, and nothing of interest prior to that since the mid 80s in my opinion.

Haven't they run out of A-list characters to kill at this point though? I'm pretty sure they've all bit it.

Haven't they run out of A-list characters to kill at this point though? I'm pretty sure they've all bit it.

Nah they still have the Thing (who I consider pretty much untouchable at this point) and the Hulk. Plus you can't kill Wolverine or Deadpool, and both of those guys are selling multiple titles right now. So they still have room to grow.

uh-oh, I really should have stayed out of this thread.

Come on Cary? Really dude? "Look back to the last truly original and at least somewhat thought provoking story Marvel put out."

Challenge accepted!

Mike Allred and Peter Milligan's X-force/X-statix

Mike Allred's run on X-Force was a complete joke, and completely alienated fans of the series. Lots of great characters were wiped away so we could watch a mutant who liked to vomit uncontrollably, and a big mutant booger named Doop. If you were a fan of Mike Allred you probably enjoyed it, but if you were reading X-force you more than likely weren't a fan of Mike Allred to begin with. Its not cool to have a book going for well over 100 issues with a certain style and direction, only to have Marvel swoop in and make the entire book a horrible farce.

I was rather happy when that disaster was canceled.

Mike Allred's run on X-Force was a complete joke, and completely alienated fans of the series. Lots of great characters were wiped away so we could watch a mutant who liked to vomit uncontrollably, and a big mutant booger named Doop. If you were a fan of Mike Allred you probably enjoyed it, but if you were reading X-force you more than likely weren't a fan of Mike Allred to begin with. Its not cool to have a book going for well over 100 issues with a certain style and direction, only to have Marvel swoop in and make the entire book a horrible farce.

I was rather happy when that disaster was canceled.

...you know the book was critically acclaimed and sales garnered well enough for a relaunch as "X-statix" that lasted for almost an extra two years. No one shied away from the fact that the team wasn't X-force. Cannonball/Domino and a couple others confronted them on that inside the book in question. Hell we also got an extra2 miniseries featuring Doctor Strange and Dead Girl and Doop/Wolverine by the end.

Allred (who I will be having a very awesome conversation with tomorrow) was not the only guy working on the book. Peter Milligan was right there with him and if I'm not mistaken current editor in chief Axel Alonso was the editor of the book.

Doop whether you like it or not has a cult following, he's a weird little character.

Uncanny X-force by Remender and it's predecessor X-force are both very strong books. (Remender is writing the hell out of it)

The reason for the new creative change? Sales were flatlining, badly. Just like with New X-men before Morrison and Uncanny before Joe Casey.

I can understand anger and frustration about books changing completely but at the same time with Allred/Milligan/Morrison/Casey and even current guys like Mike Carey...I really doubt the X-offices would have survived as well as they did even with the movie hitting.

And as witnessed just a few months ago, there are still fans clamoring for more of Milligan and Allred via the CBR talking with Breevort whatever they call those things.

...you know the book was critically acclaimed and sales garnered well enough for a relaunch as "X-statix" that lasted for almost an extra two years. No one shied away from the fact that the team wasn't X-force. Cannonball/Domino and a couple others confronted them on that inside the book in question. Hell we also got an extra2 miniseries featuring Doctor Strange and Dead Girl and Doop/Wolverine by the end.

Allred (who I will be having a very awesome conversation with tomorrow) was not the only guy working on the book. Peter Milligan was right there with him and if I'm not mistaken current editor in chief Axel Alonso was the editor of the book.

Doop whether you like it or not has a cult following, he's a weird little character.

Uncanny X-force by Remender and it's predecessor X-force are both very strong books. (Remender is writing the hell out of it)

The reason for the new creative change? Sales were flatlining, badly. Just like with New X-men before Morrison and Uncanny before Joe Casey.

I can understand anger and frustration about books changing completely but at the same time with Allred/Milligan/Morrison/Casey and even current guys like Mike Carey...I really doubt the X-offices would have survived as well as they did even with the movie hitting.

And as witnessed just a few months ago, there are still fans clamoring for more of Milligan and Allred via the CBR talking with Breevort whatever they call those things.

The sales flatlined because Marvel revamped the entire team at issue #101. X-Force went from the several mainstays of New Mutants to Pete Wisdom, Bedlam, Warpath, Meltdown and Cannonball. Warren Ellis then took the book in the wrong direction, and Whilce Potacio's style never fit the book. The entire thing shows the problem with Marvel in general; As soon as sales start to decline, you don't work to fix the title, you completely change it, alienating long time fans, and turning off new ones. If sales continue to decline after that, you just cancel the book. Which is exactly what happened to X-Statix.

It goes quite a bit beyond frustration, its like a big middle finger to someone who spends his money collecting the title. Marvel didn't even transition the title very well. One issue we had the original X-Force, then we had Pete Wisdom's X-Force with no real rhyme or reason, then we got Allred and Milligan's X-Force a year later with again, no real rhyme or reason. Characters you had grown to enjoy just disappeared. Story arcs were completely retconned. Entire plots were left hanging with no resolution ever found.

It's part of the reason I mainly read Manga now. I don't have to worry about Masashi Kishimoto letting someone completely butcher the plot and characters of Naruto.

I completely agree with Mason here (is that a first?). Sales on Allred's X-Force, and even Morrison's New X-Men were because they reached out to different audiences, ie fans of those creators. But in the process, as Mason pointed out, they completely alienated fans of those books prior. While I will say that the stuff done in both those books was original and fresh, I absolutely HATED both and thought they were the worst things to happen to the X-books in the past 20 years, and that's saying a lot. But in all honesty, those two creators in particular are VERY polarizing, so it's understandable from both sides.

So wait, I just want people to understand they are being slightly hypocritical here. Isn't one of the major arguments that people in this very thread want the industry to not only reach out to new readers and or be accessible for new readers? Milligan/Morrison and others did that.

I don't get the point of this anymore.

They didn't reach out to new readers, they reached out to different readers, being fans of Allred and Morrison. That's not new readers. Those readers were already there, just reading other stuff, most likely by Allred and Morrison.

And I also want to add, no disrespect, Eric. We just disagree is all.

So wait, I just want people to understand they are being slightly hypocritical here. Isn't one of the major arguments that people in this very thread want the industry to not only reach out to new readers and or be accessible for new readers? Milligan/Morrison and others did that.

I don't get the point of this anymore.

You can be accessible to new readers without alienating the readers you already have. You can do that by making the transition gradually, not abruptly and harshly. You can also do it within the confines of the current book, by introducing new plots, new characters, etc. If your sales are flat-lining that doesn't mean you throw the baby out with the bathwater, you just need to throw out the bathwater. X-Force had tons of stuff it could have pulled from to jump start sales. Instead of doing that, they just killed the entire continuity 2 times in a row, and then gave the old readership a big middle finger for their time and trouble. I remember that very vividly because a lot of people complained and Marvel pretty much told them to "deal with it".

That entire Allred/Miiligam stunt on X-Force just seemed like a gimmick from the beginning, and that's why it didn't last long.

This also reminds me of Grant Morrison's New X-Men. I was expecting a book about the next generation of X-Men. Instead I get a book about a team largely made up of the Old X-Men.

Yeah I agree with Mason here too. Getting people who read other comics is still tapping from the same pool of the small amount of comic readers. Just because I read the old spider-gril and I picked up the new issue of spider-gril doesn't make me a new spider-girl reader. I'm very much an old reader. Mike Allred and Co. don't necessarily add anything to new readership, though I'm a big fan of his X-Force run and iZombie (pick it up, it's great!).

How to attract new readership is something else entirely, and it's clear the entire comic industry has no idea how to do that.

If only. The quickest way to pick up new readers is to go look for them. Say, at 7-Eleven or King Soopers (that's Kroger, to you Eastern US folks).