A question about copyrights, et a; Options

[Mark Ellis]

I even tried to put things aside If that's not enough to convince you, then I quit -- we're not going to change the others mind

That's for certain, since you're trying force your subjective and wholly incorrect interpretation of what WFH encompasses down the throats of others as if it's hard reality...as you put it, "my idea"...not how it works in the real world.

The very fact that you cite inappropriate theoreticals as your examples instead of drawing on your own experience does more to support my assertion that you don't know what you're talking about than further displays of "poor sportsmanship" on my part.

Best to end it here.

[Cary]

Well, an interesting read regardless. For my part, I return original art because I feel it's the right thing to do. If I want to keep a piece, I pay for it outside the bounds of the contract I have with the artist, much as any collector or fan would at a convention. That give and take, honest approach has served me well for the past decade or so I've been making comics, and I see no reason to change the way I do things now, regardless of what might or might not be written or implied by copyright law. But hey, that's just me.

[Fred Lang]

Great journal from Sean Gordon Murphy (and Bissette, and Bissette's attorney).

SGM's DA Journal...

Until there's a green light from a given company (which is very unlikely, as such a declaration would work against their interests), I won't be painting and selling any prints, con sketches--art of any kind--of IP that I dont own. Period.

Wonder what this will do to the Artist's Alley experience at conventions?

I was just having this conversation last night regarding what to sell if I get a table at Baltimore this year...

[wwi3313]

Well, an interesting read regardless. For my part, I return original art because I feel it's the right thing to do. If I want to keep a piece, I pay for it outside the bounds of the contract I have with the artist, much as any collector or fan would at a convention. That give and take, honest approach has served me well for the past decade or so I've been making comics, and I see no reason to change the way I do things now, regardless of what might or might not be written or implied by copyright law. But hey, that's just me.

I do the same, stating that I only want the reproductive rights to the work involved. It's part of the 4-means of comp that I can offer and considering that I can't do page rates, allowing the artists to sell their work on their own seems rather fair to make up for any "loss" that they might have taken working with me.

[MasonEasley]

Great journal from Sean Gordon Murphy (and Bissette, and Bissette's attorney).

SGM's DA Journal...

Until there's a green light from a given company (which is very unlikely, as such a declaration would work against their interests), I won't be painting and selling any prints, con sketches--art of any kind--of IP that I dont own. Period.

Wonder what this will do to the Artist's Alley experience at conventions?

I was just having this conversation last night regarding what to sell if I get a table at Baltimore this year...

That DA post is nonsense Fred. Marvel isn't going to sue you because you made some Wolverine prints and are selling them on the convention floor. At most, you'll get a cease and desist warning from a representative, and you probably won't even get that. People have been saying this crap for years, and yet I still see guys like Terry Huddleston selling hundreds of prints of Marvel and DC characters at every show I attend. Hell, he has a 20 foot tall banner showing portraits of everyone from the Teen Titans to the Justice League. The idea that Marvel is going to sue you because you drew a picture of Iron Fist for a kid is pure ridiculousness.

Not only will Marvel destroy the convention scene, but conventions themselves wouldn't allow it to happen, because they'd lose so much revenue from people not getting tables at Artist Alley. For smaller cons, Artist Alley is the main draw when Marvel and DC can't attend, and people venture into artist for that original art of established characters.

Or everyone will just start drawing DC characters, which will destroy Marvel sales in the short and long term.

This post has been edited by MasonEasley: Feb 14 2012, 08:18 PM

[Fred Lang]

I hope you're right, Mason!

[MasonEasley]

I hope you're right, Mason!

Yeah, like I said this has been floating around for years now. Don't let it stop you from making the money you deserve at conventions. If Marvel ever did anything close to this, it would hurt them more than help them. Not only would it turn the fans against Marvel, it would also turn former freelancers who worked for Marvel against them too. Could you imagine the backlash if Marvel sued Adam Hughes for drawing a sketch of Psylocke? It would be a PR disaster.

This post has been edited by MasonEasley: Feb 14 2012, 09:13 PM

[Fred Lang]

I've got time until Baltimore to see how it pans out over some earlier conventions. Fingers crossed.

[Mark Ellis]

Gary Friedrich was doing far more than selling sketches or prints...he had a whole cottage industry going where he peddled unauthorized Ghost Rider merchandise from T shirts to coffee mugs on the convention circuit.

Marvel turned a blind eye to it for years and quite possibly would have continued to do so if Friedrich hadn't come after them.

I'm always on the side of the creator first and foremost, but the more I found out about this situation, the more it seems like Friedrich, once he was able to operate for awhile without being slapped down, decided to crowd Marvel even more toward a corner.

[wwi3313]

Yeah, like I said this has been floating around for years now. Don't let it stop you from making the money you deserve at conventions. If Marvel ever did anything close to this, it would hurt them more than help them. Not only would it turn the fans against Marvel, it would also turn former freelancers who worked for Marvel against them too. Could you imagine the backlash if Marvel sued Adam Hughes for drawing a sketch of Psylocke? It would be a PR disaster.

We've talked about this one before and you're right, Mason -- sketches aren't touchable -- those are considered copyrighted works of the artist, but prints...those are technically trademark infringement, and are solely at the discretion of those companies on whether they want to stop them. Artists like Terry would be shut down, but guys like Adam and a lot of other freelancers would be just fine just doing sketches -- a lot of them work that way anyhow.

[Fred Lang]

We've talked about this one before and you're right, Mason -- sketches aren't touchable -- those are considered copyrighted works of the artist, but prints...those are technically trademark infringement, and are solely at the discretion of those companies on whether they want to stop them. Artists like Terry would be shut down, but guys like Adam and a lot of other freelancers would be just fine just doing sketches -- a lot of them work that way anyhow.

Yeah, for me--it's prints I'm talking about. Still fingers crossed and paying LOTS of attention to what happens at cons over the next few months! I've got no problems making up my own sci-fi / horror / fantasy compositions, that's for sure--but I wonder if that kind of thing will sell well. I buy lots of creator-owned print work and books when I'm at cons, but maybe that's just me. Flying from SF to Baltimore to set up and sell nada would suuuuuuuuck. ;=)

[BaneBrookStudios]

Read this article. Joe Quesada and Dan Buckly Publisher at Marvel address this whole thing in their last question.

http://www.comicbookresources.com/?page=article&id=37017

They say we are providing a positive marvel experience to the con goers and that no legal action will be taken against people peddling there wears in artist alley. I for one am relieved to hear the big boys themselves say it.

[MasonEasley]

Yeah, for me--it's prints I'm talking about. Still fingers crossed and paying LOTS of attention to what happens at cons over the next few months! I've got no problems making up my own sci-fi / horror / fantasy compositions, that's for sure--but I wonder if that kind of thing will sell well. I buy lots of creator-owned print work and books when I'm at cons, but maybe that's just me. Flying from SF to Baltimore to set up and sell nada would suuuuuuuuck. ;=)

You'll definitely make money Fred, because you're a top tier artist. However, you probably wont make the kind of money you would if you drew established characters. People coming to cons WANT you to draw those characters, and those sales allow you to not only to pay off your expenses, but makes the time you spend behind a drawing table worth it.

Obviously its your call man. I'm sure you're going to have a great show either way.

Read this article. Joe Quesada and Dan Buckly Publisher at Marvel address this whole thing in their last question.

http://www.comicbookresources.com/?page=article&id=37017

They say we are providing a positive marvel experience to the con goers and that no legal action will be taken against people peddling there wears in artist alley. I for one am relieved to hear the big boys themselves say it.

Good find Jacob. I've been saying this stuff for awhile on here. Its good to finally get some official back up on this.

This post has been edited by MasonEasley: Feb 15 2012, 08:57 PM

[Fred Lang]

Looks like the CBR article is talking about Marvel artists (those who are or have actively worked on a given Marvel title), not all freelance artists (like me) getting a pass on sales at conventions. Also, they mentioned con sketches, which aren't what I'm doing.

I've had to read so much criminal law in my past career that I tune into what's not said, and they still haven't put me off the hook for this print thing yet.

I hope they were just speaking conversationally and not singling out those of us who are non-Marvel freelancers who want to sell prints, not just con sketches.

Still keeping an eye out for what happens at cons for the next few months--!

*Okay, re-reading the question they were asked...it does sound promising...! Hope hope hope hope...

This post has been edited by Fred Lang: Feb 15 2012, 09:10 PM

[Fred Lang]

However, you probably wont make the kind of money you would if you drew established characters. People coming to cons WANT you to draw those characters, and those sales allow you to not only to pay off your expenses, but makes the time you spend behind a drawing table worth it.

Obviously its your call man. I'm sure you're going to have a great show either way.

Oh, I'd very much prefer to sell prints of established characters--! I'm hopeful I'll be able to.

[doombug]

Gary Friedrich was doing far more than selling sketches or prints...he had a whole cottage industry going where he peddled unauthorized Ghost Rider merchandise from T shirts to coffee mugs on the convention circuit.

Marvel turned a blind eye to it for years and quite possibly would have continued to do so if Friedrich hadn't come after them.

I'm always on the side of the creator first and foremost, but the more I found out about this situation, the more it seems like Friedrich, once he was able to operate for awhile without being slapped down, decided to crowd Marvel even more toward a corner.

This because honestly I'm bothered by Marvel being painted as the big bad villain here.

I'm sorry but the fact that Gary has guys like Steve Niles raising money for him for selling prints of work he had no claim to and he has gone on record saying he will fight even further (with said money people are raising for him) bothers me immensely.

[Mark Ellis]

I receive almost daily pleas in my emails and through Facebook to contribute money to the Gary Friedrich "I been robbed of Ghost Rider" cause. It's getting tiresome for a couple of reasons.

I'm no fan of either Marvel or DC management (or the way they have occasionally freely interpreted WFH to justify immoral behavior), but the Gary Friedrich situation strikes me as a case of somebody trying to pick a fight, and when the other party finally accomodates them, they whine the other party was bigger than them.

Like: "Duh, you didn't notice that when you started?"

I've concluded that Friedrich and his attorney expected Marvel would decide to settle and give them shut up and go away money, since it was patently obvious no judge except one maybe on Bizarro World would ever award Friedrich the copyright of Ghost Rider...particularly since he didn't even come up with the name of the title character and that he had signed away his rights to the property twice.

Also...since the decision, I've seen Friedrich described as "destitute" and "penniless" even before he filed suit.

Uh...if somebody is able to afford to hire an entertainment attorney and keep a suit of this kind going for years, they're hardly destitute.

Poor Steve Perry, creator of Epic's Time Spirits and primary writer of Thundercats whose illness and poverty-plagued life ended when his sociopathic housemate murdered and dismembered him in a dirty, forceclosed home in Central Florida--

That was destitute....not somebody whose lawsuit didn't turn out the way he wanted.

This post has been edited by Mark Ellis: Feb 19 2012, 08:51 AM