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Citizen no more
Cary
post May 1 2011, 02:57 PM
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QUOTE (Gonzogoose @ May 1 2011, 10:12 AM) *
Cary, it's not that I don't understand... I am American after all, always have been. It's funny, anytime I disagree with you, you think I just don't understand or get it. I get it. But my point is it's a marketing ploy and therefore means nothing. You really think DC is going to alienate American fans of Superman for a long period of time? Well, any more than they already have that is...

Listen to Zone 4 next week. One important fact I overlooked is that David S. Goyer, the writer for this story, is also the writer of next year's Man of Steel film. Obviously it's either something noted in the film, or he's preparing audiences for the fact that Superman is the world's and not just America's. Regardless, it's still a marketing ploy (something I played down at first, but clearly see now), and as Mark said, you're being sucked in by it. I'm choosing to side step it. wink.gif


I say you don't get it, because your statements lead me to believe just that. I understand it's a marketing ploy. In fact if you read my very first post, I said that very thing. It's pretty obvious really, if you look at it. Does that make it less wrong somehow? "Oh it's ok that they did that, it was only a marketing thing." That's a BS excuse, and it excuses nothing. Doesn't matter why they did it, what matters is it's wrong.

As to playing right into their hands by raging about it...that's how people get rounded up and put into camps. By not speaking out about something that's wrong and thinking that if we ignore it the problem will somehow go away. I'd rather do my part to get the word out, regardless of how small that might be, thanks. In addition, I will continue speaking with my wallet as well, and pass on DC comics. With stories like this, they certainly don't want my business.


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Gonzogoose
post May 1 2011, 03:34 PM
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I just think that there are two ways to view this. You are viewing it one way, I another. So let's just leave it at that, bro.


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Guest_cougar18_*
post May 1 2011, 10:39 PM
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QUOTE (Cary @ Apr 30 2011, 12:07 PM) *
Ok so it's only been "American way" for 60 odd years then. Sheesh. At the end of the day it doesn't matter. He's an American. He's ALWAYS been an American. To have this character who holds so strongly to Midwestern values due to his Kansas upbringing decide one day to renounce his American citizenship is a slap in the face, regardless of whatever or whenever the tag line was used. It is very MUCH a big deal Brant. Superman's a hero. Now he's right out front making a statement like this? Five pages or fifty that's wrong.


Cary, Kal El was born on Krypton, which therefore makes him a KRYPTONIAN citizen. He never got a US green card, nor ever filled out the forms. He's Krytonian. It's not like Bruce Wayne, or Peter Parker, two heroes who were born in the US.
He has learned his ideals from both his biological and adoptive parents. Jor El and Lara El taught him about love, pain and sacrifice, when they sent their only son, their legacy, to Earth, to save his life at the expense of their own. They prayed and hoped that their son would know the kindness and love they had for him when his shuttle landed on Earth, prayed he would make it to Earth, prayed for his future, and prayed that he would be the honorable son they wished they could live to see.

When Kal El arrived on Earth, he found himself with the Kents, a family who showed him love, kindness, and instilled a strong sense of right and wrong in him. They were the equivalent of Jor El and Lara El, with all the joys and sadness of life. They taught him about the fragility of life, and how precious it is. But is it ethnocentric to him being an American citizen, or in this case, adopted citizen? You use the Russia example, which is fine and relevant to the Cold War era, but what about now? Russia is quite an open and educated country than it was during the days of Communist regime. They allow far more in their media and in their citizens than the United States. Alot of people see the majority of AMerican citizens as rather ignorant of the world around them, yet when one looks at their media, and what it espouses, it is not hard to see why.

Now, I use this analogy knowing that Osama Bin Laden has just been killed, but American citizens were highly surprised by the terrorist attacks of September 11th, as they asked the question "Why Us?" An article published on Sequential Tarts argued "Why Not?" When America sided with certain dictators, many of whom were outright tyrants, such as Saddam Hussein, or Idi Amin, they allowed a certain populace of people to be tortured and victimised, yet they protected another populace who were doing the torturing. Some would still be in power if only they had stopped asking for money.

I am quite surprised it took this long for Superman to renounce his citizenship. (Btw, Superman Returns said it in 2006, but in Justice League in 2001, Superman said something similar as in " Not just the American Way, but for the world" or something.) But since he never had citizenship, it is not such a big deal to renounce it.
Superman, and David Goyer, are right in my humble opinion. The world is smaller, the 'American Way' is old fashioned and out of touch with society, and what is 'right' for the government, is not right for the world. I point to the above mentioning of dictators who were friends of the US, yet villains to the rest of the world, and all with the aid of the American dollar.
Could Superman carry the Stars and Stripes knowing this to be true?

And at the end of the day, Superman belongs to the world now, as an icon. A hero to protect the sanctity of life, not just the American citizens.

I welcome an open and honest debate.
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Cary
post May 2 2011, 06:00 AM
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Being a Superman fan and reader going back almost to the very first comics I read, I'm pretty well versed in his origins. I think with the Kryptonian education you allude to there's quite a bit of movie lore tossed in there. Even in the most recent comic continuity he didn't learn the Kryptonian language until adulthood, so the whole learning from his birth parents thing is pretty slim, IMO. Clark Kent was raised by Jonathan and Martha Kent with traditional American values, plain and simple. His father taught him it wasn't right to use his powers to play sports because it gave him an unfair advantage. Both parents taught him the importance of honesty and truth. Hell, a number of heroes like Green Arrow and Batman call him the "Boy scout". While his Kryptonian lineage is undeniable, his personality, his ethics, even his sensibilities are uniquely American.

I've known people who renounced their citizenship. In a couple of cases very good friends of mine. For most of them it was because they got fouled up in one way or another with the justice system and opted out to end some painful legal wrangling. Some of them did it for tax purposes, which I consider to be pretty silly honestly, but that's just me. In every single case the one common denominator is, they wish they hadn't done so. At least on that point I can agree with them.

I've never said America is perfect. In fact I think we're far from it. But I think that's a good thing. I think having a lot of work to do to get where we need to be is a healthy thing to have, because we can't simply rest on our laurels. We have to keep pushing forward, keep striving to be better. But that striving doesn't mean we should give up our sense of what it means to be an American.

I used Russia as an example because I grew up in and served during the Cold War. Having traveled to Russia and seen the country first hand, I can tell you they aren't nearly as cosmopolitan as you're making them sound. I'm not sure what you mean by Russians having more freedoms than we do, but having had boots on the ground there and having a number of Russian and other former Soviet bloc friends, that's not the case at all.

I will agree, especially in Europe, we are viewed as very sheltered and uninformed. I'd say part of that is legitimate, no doubt about it. Americans don't travel internationally as much as the citizens of other countries do, mostly I believe because we have such a vast country right here at home to see and experience. And certainly our "news" is pretty filtered because it's almost entirely owned by corporations with various interests that don't always coincide with our own. But I've always found that falling back on something my grandfather told me once has served me quite well. He said simply: "Don't believe everything you read, or see on TV." I've found that to be some of the best advice anyone has every given me, and even more relevant in this day and age where even still pictures are easily manipulated to suit the needs of the moment.

And for the record, I have no issue with Superman being a hero for the world. I've always felt like that was his job anyway, as he sees it. It's the renouncing his citizenship that I find uncharacteristic. Superman shouldn't really be bothered with something of that nature. It's not like he carries a passport anyway, right? So that brings me back to it being the writer, and by extension editorial, espousing their politics through a character that should be well above that at this point.

And I have to wonder...since Superman's now a 'citizen of the world' does DC plan to stop the mindless litigation against his creators and return to them what's owed? I'd say probably not.


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Zodar
post May 2 2011, 06:35 AM
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QUOTE (Cary @ May 2 2011, 08:00 AM) *
And for the record, I have no issue with Superman being a hero for the world. I've always felt like that was his job anyway, as he sees it. It's the renouncing his citizenship that I find uncharacteristic. Superman shouldn't really be bothered with something of that nature. It's not like he carries a passport anyway, right? So that brings me back to it being the writer, and by extension editorial, espousing their politics through a character that should be well above that at this point.


He did it so his actions wouldn't be percieved as the actions of the United States. Hell, I am an American citizen and I wouldn't want any of my actions seen as being the action of the US. This is similar to when Captain America unmasked stating, essentially, "this isn't America doing this, this is Steve Rogers" when he killed a terrorist on camera. He was trying to insulate the government from blame for actions he was personally commiting. Yeah, it wouldn't really work that way, but that was the attempt.

Talking back to one of your earlier comments, and a comment I've seen repeatedly, this story is in no way saying that the American way is in opposition to Truth and Justice. If Mark Millar or Warren Ellis had written it, I'm sure that would have been the case, and I could understand the reaction a little more. I still wouldn't agree with the reaction to it as I am critical of how our goverment sometime acts and do feel that America does not always act in the interests of truth and justice. But that's outside this and not worth getting into here. The point is that this is not disparaging America.

They typically portray Clark/Kal as the real guy, and Superman being a symbolic persona that he puts on. Clark, I'm sure, still considers himself an American citizen and continues to be proud of the upbringing he received. The main story in the issue itself showed how much his adoptive parents still mean to him.

Like Eric said, this could make for some good stories. Maybe we should let it play out before getting too upset. For all we know, the story planned could have had him turn around at the end. Unlikely, but now if it goes that way the impression would be that the creators caved due to response.

As for the politics of the creators, that's been there since the Golden Age with the heroes getting into WW2. Then in the 60s and 70s we had quite a bit dealing with race, while the 70s and 80s moved into the environment, drugs, and class differences. And most of those comics are highly praised today for the fact that they went further than just entertainment.

This post has been edited by Zodar: May 2 2011, 07:36 AM


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Zodar
post May 2 2011, 07:30 AM
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QUOTE (ChadStrohl @ May 1 2011, 12:47 AM) *
Sounds like the writer in question is honoring the age old stereotype of Superman being a dimwitted sap. He never seems to have his own opinion on much of anything and he's a windsock when it comes to his political ideology.


I'm not sure how you can see a character striking out on his own as being an example of him as a dimwitted sap. To me, this is the exact opposite of the sap portrayal. The whole point of this is that he doesn't want to be seen as a tool.

QUOTE
What I do have a problem with is the (assumed) possibility such a statement suggests that Americanism is somehow wrong.


That's an assumption that a lot of people are making, but you remember what they say happens when we assume? I did not read that in the story at all and I have to ask people that are reading it that way why is something "for the world" automatically taken as "against America?"

QUOTE
This is not an issue that should be wrestled with and decided in a handful of panels. This is something that character should wrestle with every day of his life on earth.


I totally agree

QUOTE
Let the man stand for something and have him stick to his guns when that stance is questioned.


Maybe they want to do that, but nobody wants to let them.

Chad, sorry, I know I disected your comment here but you had a lot of good points to respond to that spoke back to a lot of peoples' comments here.

This post has been edited by Zodar: May 2 2011, 08:29 AM


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Mark Ellis
post May 2 2011, 07:53 AM
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QUOTE (Cary @ May 1 2011, 04:57 PM) *
As to playing right into their hands by raging about it...that's how people get rounded up and put into camps. By not speaking out about something that's wrong and thinking that if we ignore it the problem will somehow go away. I'd rather do my part to get the word out, regardless of how small that might be, thanks.


Actually, all you're accomplishing with your outraged rhetoric is doing your part to encourage 'em to keep on doing it.

The marketing and PR people at Warner/DC who concoct this crap operate on the "shit thrown against the wall" principle.

If the shit sticks--as your reaction shows it does--then after the tulmut about Superman renouncing his citizenship dies down, they'll come up with something else to make you freak out...like Wonder Woman announcing she's a lesbian or that Black Lightning converting to Islam or something along those lines.

Whether your reaction is negative or positive, you're helping the people who come up with this crap to keep their jobs by doing your part to "get the word out."

It's not courage...it's cooperation.




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Kenn Minter
post May 2 2011, 07:55 AM
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I'm on Superman's side. I think it's great.

Nyaaaaaaaaah. tongue.gif


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Glen Davis
post May 2 2011, 11:33 AM
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http://bighollywood.breitbart.com/hollywoo...on-the-way-out/
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Guest_cougar18_*
post May 2 2011, 12:33 PM
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QUOTE (Mark Ellis @ May 2 2011, 06:53 AM) *
Actually, all you're accomplishing with your outraged rhetoric is doing your part to encourage 'em to keep on doing it.

The marketing and PR people at Warner/DC who concoct this crap operate on the "shit thrown against the wall" principle.

If the shit sticks--as your reaction shows it does--then after the tulmut about Superman renouncing his citizenship dies down, they'll come up with something else to make you freak out...like Wonder Woman announcing she's a lesbian or that Black Lightning converting to Islam or something along those lines.

Whether your reaction is negative or positive, you're helping the people who come up with this crap to keep their jobs by doing your part to "get the word out."

It's not courage...it's cooperation.


Glad you responded to that comment. I saw the 'rounded up into camps bit' and thought 'Really? Over a comic? Who the heck is gonna round people up and thrown them into detention camps over a comic." Pretty far fetched to me. (Just shows the passion people have for these characters).

But look at it this way. What nationality is Henry Cavill, the actor playing Superman? British. And what nationality is the actor playing Batman? British. Actor playing Spider-man? Ah, you know the rest.
These characters, no matter about their origins, belong to the world. Why? Because they have transcended the borders of the page, and even the country of their origins. And that is not a bad thing, that just shows how small the world has become. We have a world where a message can be sent from one side of the earth to the other in minutes, where news can get around in the blink of an eye, and where people can look at a hero/heroine, and take away something special from the character(which many's a writer fails to grasp).

Cary cited Superman as being an American. But then conceded he is not, even if his ideals and the way he is raised are as American as Apple pie, the guy is not american. Same as if I was to start a family here, move to the states, and raise my kids with a traditional American upbringing. They would have American ideals, and sound American, but they would be Irish (to do all that, I would have to find a willing host...aka, a wife smile.gif ). Krypton is his legacy, his heritage. Similar to how we, as a people, carry on certain traditions left to us by our ancestors, he carries certain Kryptonian rituals with him also. He has even held memories of certain stories and tales that originated from Krypton, as seen in books like JLA and his own titles.

Lastly, what would be so wrong if Black Lightning became a muslim? There are terrorists in every religion and none, so why would it be such a big deal?
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Cary
post May 2 2011, 05:35 PM
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QUOTE (cougar18 @ May 2 2011, 01:33 PM) *
Glad you responded to that comment. I saw the 'rounded up into camps bit' and thought 'Really? Over a comic? Who the heck is gonna round people up and thrown them into detention camps over a comic." Pretty far fetched to me. (Just shows the passion people have for these characters).


It's really not about the comic at all, it's about the willingness of some people to be timid sheep when they find something objectionable. According to some, by speaking out against something that I find completely wrong I'm somehow enabling the people doing what I object to. For me personally, that's circular and ultimately self-defeating logic, if you can call it logic at all. I don't expect everyone to agree, nor would I want them to. That's what makes our country so great, at least in my opinion. But to simply accept it and act as if nothing is wrong in the hopes it will somehow go away is very much along the same thought processes that has found people rounded up and persecuted. "Surely it'll never happen to us." "If we pay them no mind, they'll go away." Again, no thanks. I'd rather paint them with a spotlight and give voice to it than ignore it and allow them to get away with it.


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Guest_cougar18_*
post May 2 2011, 06:43 PM
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QUOTE (Cary @ May 2 2011, 04:35 PM) *
It's really not about the comic at all, it's about the willingness of some people to be timid sheep when they find something objectionable. According to some, by speaking out against something that I find completely wrong I'm somehow enabling the people doing what I object to. For me personally, that's circular and ultimately self-defeating logic, if you can call it logic at all. I don't expect everyone to agree, nor would I want them to. That's what makes our country so great, at least in my opinion. But to simply accept it and act as if nothing is wrong in the hopes it will somehow go away is very much along the same thought processes that has found people rounded up and persecuted. "Surely it'll never happen to us." "If we pay them no mind, they'll go away." Again, no thanks. I'd rather paint them with a spotlight and give voice to it than ignore it and allow them to get away with it.


Cary, I'm not American, and freedom of speech has been here for quite while now. It's called democracy, and alot of us have it. Freedom of Speech is something we also treasure. The one topic that seems to ignite protest everywhere, whether it is in a bastion of free speech, such as Sweden, or in a society where religion is ingrained into society, such as America/ Iran/ Afghanistan etc, is religion. No matter how we percieve it, some days a religious statement can be seed as indifferent and treated as free speech, other days, such as the 'Piss Christ' photograph, it can be attacked with objects and vandalised, because some fundamentalist got their underwear in a knot.
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Liam Bradley
post May 2 2011, 07:12 PM
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I F**KING LOVE THIS THREAD.


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Mark Ellis
post May 2 2011, 07:30 PM
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QUOTE (Cary @ May 2 2011, 07:35 PM) *
According to some, by speaking out against something that I find completely wrong I'm somehow enabling the people doing what I object to.


You're not enabling them, but you're certainly doing exactly and precisely what they want you do...which is essentially looking where they told you to look. And then chortling over it:

"Made you look!"

Try as you might, you can't turn a desperate and transparent marketing ploy into some sort of greater moral dilemma for a couple of simple reasons--

First and foremost, it's about a comic book character.

Secondarily, the whole rasion d'etre behind Superman renouncing his honorary American citizenship is conceptually stupid and in execution, utterly illogical and ultimately meaningless.

To me, getting upset over this is tantamount to getting upset over Bugs Bunny's mistreatment of Daffy Duck in "Duck Amuck."



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ChadStrohl
post May 2 2011, 09:01 PM
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QUOTE (Zodar @ May 2 2011, 09:30 AM) *
I'm not sure how you can see a character striking out on his own as being an example of him as a dimwitted sap. To me, this is the exact opposite of the sap portrayal. The whole point of this is that he doesn't want to be seen as a tool.

Chad, sorry, I know I disected your comment here but you had a lot of good points to respond to that spoke back to a lot of peoples' comments here.


Not a problem. I haven't actually read the story and any opinion I have is gathered from the posts on this thread. What I gathered here was that it wasn't necessarily Superman forming this decision on his own, but having been swayed by outside pressure to make this decision via some type of protest. And while I think all of us can be swayed by outside opinion - otherwise, what is debate for? - I think the catalyst of that decision should be information and not pressure. To that, I'm curious what information did Superman suddenly become privy to that made it appropriate to resounce his "American citizenship" regardless of whether he actually had such a thing or not? Wouldn't it have been as equally appropriate for him to announce, "I am an American citizen. I am Hispanic. I am European. African, Middle Eastern and Asian. I am one with you all." or something like that? That would serve to convey a positive message of peace and unity without the (in)direct condemnation of any other.

That's a somewhat clearer - not written at 2am - version of what I meant to say the first time.

As far as the "dimwitted sap" tag, I've just noticed that Superman, and Captain America as well, seem to be vehicles for political ramrodding rather than actual characters. In The Dark Knight Returns he's a fascist flag waving "yes man" as one example, and now he appears to be quite the opposite. Who is this Superman guy and what does he stand for?


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Gonzogoose
post May 2 2011, 09:02 PM
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QUOTE (Mark Ellis @ May 2 2011, 09:30 PM) *
You're not enabling them, but you're certainly doing exactly and precisely what they want you do...which is essentially looking where they told you to look. And then chortling over it:

"Made you look!"

Try as you might, you can't turn a desperate and transparent marketing ploy into some sort of greater moral dilemma for a couple of simple reasons--

First and foremost, it's about a comic book character.

Secondarily, the whole rasion d'etre behind Superman renouncing his honorary American citizenship is conceptually stupid and in execution, utterly illogical and ultimately meaningless.

To me, getting upset over this is tantamount to getting upset over Bugs Bunny's mistreatment of Daffy Duck in "Duck Amuck."



If we had "like" buttons on the forums like Facebook I'd totally "like" this post! smile.gif


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ChadStrohl
post May 2 2011, 09:05 PM
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QUOTE (Mark Ellis @ May 2 2011, 09:30 PM) *
To me, getting upset over this is tantamount to getting upset over Bugs Bunny's mistreatment of Daffy Duck in "Duck Amuck."



I sort of did get upset by that. smile.gif


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Guest_cougar18_*
post May 3 2011, 03:24 AM
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QUOTE (ChadStrohl @ May 2 2011, 07:05 PM) *
I sort of did get upset by that. smile.gif


We are also forgetting that Joe Shuster was Canadian, so Superman's renunciation of his adopted homeland can be seen as somewhat more understandable.

The following comments are courtesy of DC artist Brett Booth, and not my opinion. I have reposted them here because I feel he understands the point clearly about Superman renouncing his citizenship.

Just a few things. First, Shuster was Canadian. Superman did not fight the Nazi's until the 40's, he fought regular criminals until then. He was created in 30's. The American way was added later.

There is no liberal spin. Obama is the president in the story. If it was Bush I could see that. And yes, is Superman does something in another country, if he's so American it can and will be considered and American attack, he is a member the Justice League of AMERICA. If you don't think some evil dictator wouldn't use that you need to get out more.

No reason to change? To protect America and it's citizens from attacks he gives up something he holds dear. How does that diminish the character? Sounds like something he'd do to me. All the crap you like and remember about Superman was originally done on the TV show, not the comic. The 'American Way' What ever the hell that is now, was only done there and the movie. Remember the comic was restarted 80's , he is not completely the same, his father didn't die when he was young, powers are slightly different, ect. Characters change and evolve, that you can't seem to understand this says more about you than Goyer. Times change, the world is NOT the same place it was in the 50's. For some reason you seem to the think the US is the best, this is simply not the case. We are not the best anymore. The sooner you and your kind releize this, the soon we can actually start making positive changes. The 50's was not the bastion of greatness you seem to think it was, unless you were a rich white male, why go back when we should be moving forward. That is what is happening in the comic and real life.

You do understand the people who are pitching a fit are all the same type. White Republicans, funny:)




All comments are taken from his blog, and click on the link below to see the context.

Brett Booth Blog
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Cary
post May 3 2011, 05:43 AM
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Ah, Brett Booth has decided everyone who has an opinion that differs must be a white Republican. I wonder how that would play had he used black Democrat? I somehow doubt it would have been ok.

And again, it's not about a character at all. It's about a hero doing something completely against his character. Sure you can say well it's just comics, and that's fine if you want to downplay it, but I think it's more than that. It's the premier comic book character, the most recognizable hero in the genre, the one guy who has always been the untarnished hero wadding up his American citizenship and throwing it away. That sends the absolute wrong message.


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Gonzogoose
post May 3 2011, 05:57 AM
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He's not wadding it up and throwing it away, though, he's freeing the nation from further ridicule from his actions.


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