How much CGI is too much?... for comics Options

[BaneBrookStudios]

I just saw the preview for Epic Kill from Image comics...
So another book that is 90% rendered by a 3D program hits the market. This dude is not a "digital artist", he traces 3D models, in my book he's no better than Greg Land. If that's how he is gonna do it, then he should credit himself as a 3d artist, but of course he won't do that because he wouldn't sell as many books. Why? Because as comic fans we love seeing amazing art and knowing that a regular dude, like you and me, actually sat down and drew it. I'm not talking about using photoshop to draw a comic on your Wacom tablet, I'm not even talking about using a 3D model as reference, this is all okay in my book (i prefer to use manga studio). I'm talking about using fully rendered models in fully rendered clothes and placed in fully rendered backgrounds then tossing a few lines on them to try to hide the fact that they are not drawings.

He doesn't deny that he uses a 3D program to make the comic (actually, he doesn't respond to the question at all). So I guess he's technically not lying about it or anything but I think it's damn misleading and it makes me laugh when people complement him on his art.

Anyways, I really want to hear from the CR community on the topic of using 3d models. How much is too much?

[Anthony Hochrein]

Hm. I never really liked using Poser or Daz to do anything else but be a means to an end where my drawings are concerned. They did help me over a lot of anatomical hurdles, but when it comes down to using it to illustrate a story, unless there's a TON of great lighting and rendering and post work done, I never really feel that I can call the art "mine". I would say, if you are a writer looking to tell a story and you cannot find an artist for it, yeah, fine, use it to tell the story. I've seen Poser figures pop up all over comics, internet ads and television ads where the budget wasn't big enough for a real illustrator.
I don't know- it never seems like it's "mine"...more like a ready made digital doll tool, which Poser and Daz3D are if the user puts nothing in there.

[Anthony Hochrein]

That being said, the artwork from the book don't look that bad. It lacks weight, but I thought you meant that the art was straight out of a Poser program.

[BaneBrookStudios]

How much more "straight out of Poser" does it need to be before you would disapprove? He colors it like a regular comic but it doesn't change the fact that his line art is a bunch of 3D models that are poorly inked in an attempt to make them look like comic art. I did research on him and He worked in the video game industry for 10 yrs doing model work and CG backgrounds so I know he has a history with CGI.

But hey if it looks cool who care if it craps on american comic culture, right?
(i guess it gets to me because I have been struggling for years trying to become a better artist and this dude buys a $200 program and gets an Image Comics book out of it. WTF?)

[Fred Lang]

It's just digital Fumetti, so there's certainly precedent for using "pre-made" images to tell a sequential story. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fumetti

Honestly, if a creator can tell a gripping, visually-arresting story with glitter and dried macaroni on a painted paper plate, I'd buy it. The medium by which the story is told is secondary to me.

I'm not offended in the least by the choice of medium.

That said, I've yet to see an artist use Poser effectively. It tends to suck all of the life out of the work--but I'm sure someone is working really hard right now using Poser in such a way that I'll have to change my opinion.

[Greg G.]

How much more "straight out of Poser" does it need to be before you would disapprove? He colors it like a regular comic but it doesn't change the fact that his line art is a bunch of 3D models that are poorly inked in an attempt to make them look like comic art. I did research on him and He worked in the video game industry for 10 yrs doing model work and CG backgrounds so I know he has a history with CGI.

But hey if it looks cool who care if it craps on american comic culture, right?
(i guess it gets to me because I have been struggling for years trying to become a better artist and this dude buys a $200 program and gets an Image Comics book out of it. WTF?)

Well to play Devil's advocate. How is what this artist is doing, different from this?

They both employ artistic shortcuts.

The biggest shame for me is, if I recall correctly, Brandon Peterson heavily using modeling software for his illustration these days. I used to really love his art, but now it's mostly stiff and lifeless.

Proportionately correct, yes.

Boring to look at.

[BaneBrookStudios]

@Fred Lang
Fumetti is not masquerading as comic art. Most people can tell a real picture when they see one (ex, Titanium Rain totally uses photos for sequential art) so I don't find that practice misleading it just kinda depresses me that some random comic artist has one less job because they decided to go Fumetti (thanks for the word by the way, I never knew what to call this process). Plus, I assumed you might defend this because if "Popular Opinion" begins to think that artists using 3D models as line art is cheap how long before they turn on you for using 3D props like the motorcycle you posted. So I figure this is just a preemptive strike on your part to squash any bad mouthing of 3D reference.

@Greg G
I began using monochromatic photo backgrounds in me pin-up art to break up the negative space. I had just started learning to color in photoshop and that was all my skills could muster. I continued progressing this process until I drew the Spider Man pic you put up a link to. In that drawing I used a full color pic of some Chicago buildings and altered the color to look comic-like...Then I stopped. Check the time line on my DA, I did it for 6 months and decided it was way too cheap. I should have listened to BJ (Studio Akumakaze) when he told me it was a dumb idea but at the time I had tunnel vision. I felt I needed to make a splash in the indie scene so that meant I needed a portfolio full of popular characters.

(Okay so the back story is finally done) In summary as to why it was different, I feel I should make some comparisons to me and Raffaele Ienco.
-I am a beginner looking for a style to call my own, he has 10 yrs experience in the video game industry and has an Image Comic.
-I was using photo Bgs in a desperate bid to get some attention as a indie artist, He is well established in the comic community and has self-published a number of titles.
-I don't hide the fact that I did make pin-ups with real photo BGs (Greg spotted it immediately), he says he drew the art in his book when it is clearly traced from models.
-When I draw a book the pages are 100% original "Jacob Newell Art" no fillers or preservatives, his book is far from it.

@Everyone
As a kid I used to buy books based on what artist was drawing it. It wasn't till much later that I realized most people follow comic writers and not artists. Hell, the only reason I picked up Kick-ass was because John Romita jr is a master artist. I didn't really care who wrote the book till after I read it and found out it was a very good story. The magic of comic art captivates me in a way that nothing in this world can, so when I see people achieving my dream without having to bleed in the trenches of artist alley or pour threw books of anatomy to improve even just a little bit, well I guess I get mad:)

[Greg G.]

@Greg G
I began using monochromatic photo backgrounds in me pin-up art to break up the negative space. I had just started learning to color in photoshop and that was all my skills could muster. I continued progressing this process until I drew the Spider Man pic you put up a link to. In that drawing I used a full color pic of some Chicago buildings and altered the color to look comic-like...Then I stopped. Check the time line on my DA, I did it for 6 months and decided it was way too cheap. I should have listened to BJ (Studio Akumakaze) when he told me it was a dumb idea but at the time I had tunnel vision. I felt I needed to make a splash in the indie scene so that meant I needed a portfolio full of popular characters.

(Okay so the back story is finally done) In summary as to why it was different, I feel I should make some comparisons to me and Raffaele Ienco.
-I am a beginner looking for a style to call my own, he has 10 yrs experience in the video game industry and has an Image Comic.
-I was using photo Bgs in a desperate bid to get some attention as a indie artist, He is well established in the comic community and has self-published a number of titles.
-I don't hide the fact that I did make pin-ups with real photo BGs (Greg spotted it immediately), he says he drew the art in his book when it is clearly traced from models.
-When I draw a book the pages are 100% original "Jacob Newell Art" no fillers or preservatives, his book is far from it.

@Everyone
As a kid I used to buy books based on what artist was drawing it. It wasn't till much later that I realized most people follow comic writers and not artists. Hell, the only reason I picked up Kick-ass was because John Romita jr is a master artist. I didn't really care who wrote the book till after I read it and found out it was a very good story. The magic of comic art captivates me in a way that nothing in this world can, so when I see people achieving my dream without having to bleed in the trenches of artist alley or pour threw books of anatomy to improve even just a little bit, well I guess I get mad:)

This sounds like sour grapes really.

This guy wasn't handed an Image book. That's not how Image works.

He drew, or traced over 3D models, a full comic series. Now Image is publishing it for him. Chances are the book may tank.

Bottom line is he did the work. He made a book and it's going to see print because he got it done.

A lot of artists get hung up on this aspect of the industry, guys like this one and Greg Land. I used to have that ego swagger too, but I think the years have mellowed my perspective. The bottom line is they get the work done on time.

That doesn't mean I like it and buy it. It just demonstrates to me this is how these guys get work.

I browsed your DA gallery and ignoring the photo drops in the backgrounds, that's one thing I noticed is decidedly lacking. Backgrounds. Well backgrounds and sequential art in general. It's what separates the pros from the schmoes. You need to be able to draw everything. Baby strollers, lamp posts, trees, puppies, old ladies, and superheroes. Even if you use Sketch Up or photo reference to help fill in the blanks, you need to fill those pages.

You may just need to surround yourself with the information that's out there from people in the craft that are working in the industry. A good starting point is The Doug Mahnke Style of Comic Book Pencilling DVD. Mahnke is a no nonsense guy that lays out the ground rules of his job clearly.

[Fred Lang]

Yeah, Greg's pretty much on target.

Practice like hell for five or six more years, get to a professional level of artwork, and kick butt making your own stuff. You can do it, BBS--then you can point to your work and say, "I did this exactly the way I want to do it!"

Keep it up!

[Rayman]

I think his comic looks pretty good. No matter how he did it. He did it. Perhaps it’s the start of a new way of making comics? Perhaps one day, you yourself may be making comics in the same way. Now won’t that be ironic?

[Anthony Hochrein]

"Never draw anything you can copy, never copy anything you can trace, never trace anything you can cut out and paste up."- WALLY WOOD
You know, back when I decided to pursue comics again after years away from the medium, I saw artwork that completely stunned me compared to what I grew up on and what was in the industry in the 1990's. I saw artwork in Marvel and DC comics on a regular basis that was on par with the stunning artwork that I used to see in Heavy Metal magazine. Graphic novel quality artwork that made me question- how the hell are these people doing this work on a monthly basis on deadline? Well, I know that the best have their tricks, and one of those is to use digital models and photos. of course, you should always strive to make it LOOK like you're not relying on photos or else the work falls flat.
Nothing annoys me more than the comment that an artist is cheating when they use reference via digital models or photos. Hell, I can turn out the same work that I do WITHOUT reference. It would just take me a much longer time while I noodle. Yeaap, that goes there and no... that's wrong... oh, crap, that's wrong... damn yeah, scribble scribble scribble...
I tried not using reference before- it didn't help me to yield my jobs quick enough to make any money. I had an illustration teacher who used to love quoting this- "You are only as good as your reference."
As far as TRACING is concerned, ok, fine, do that- but you'd better be able to go into that work and make it shine! That's the trick. once I'm ready to take a break from the sketch cards to work on my indy book projects, you'll bet I will be ready to steal any image that I can to get that book done and packaged in as short a time as I can. You can call me a cheat or whatever, but the book will be finished, and I won't be left sitting wondering if I did this or that right, and I won't be "Liefelding" it, either. Advertising artists do it all of the time, but it depends on how the artist uses the reference that gives them the better end product.
Heck, I thought that we were talking about just using the dolls themselves. Check out this webcomic, created in Daz3D Studio: http://hypertransitory.com/blog/2011/10/31...the-life-taker/

[MasonEasley]

Well I think Epic Kill looks pretty atrocious personally. However that's just my opinion. The figures definitely lack a lot power and presence you see in other work. That said, I wish these guys the best and hope their book is successful.

[Rayman]

You think this is atrocious?



This post has been edited by Rayman: Feb 27 2012, 12:36 PM

[Anthony Hochrein]

I have a number of criticisms that I can make, but suffice it to say, the artist really could have put a nice powerful stamp on the work. i personally would have made it as in your face dynamic as I could have, with plenty of strong blacks and clear separation of values. But... who am I to talk? The book is complete, and Image is putting it on the stands.

[MasonEasley]

You think this is atrocious?

The sequential panel work does. Everything looks...weird, and every character has a dead expression on their face. Also the colors are pretty bland.

Again, completely my opinion. Not something I'll be picking up in the stands, but I hope they're successful.

I have a number of criticisms that I can make, but suffice it to say, the artist really could have put a nice powerful stamp on the work. i personally would have made it as in your face dynamic as I could have, with plenty of strong blacks and clear separation of values. But... who am I to talk? The book is complete, and Image is putting it on the stands.

Pretty much. Can't argue with success.

This post has been edited by MasonEasley: Feb 27 2012, 03:12 PM

[BaneBrookStudios]

Well, I started out to find where the line is drawn on what we consider "comic art".
My findings are quite the shock to me. You see, I thought the line was 3 steps back from what Raffaele Ienco is doing. But I guess popular opinion has proven me wrong.

The ends justify the means, huh?

@Anthony Hochrein
Bro. Calm down. No one here said using reference is a bad thing. I have no idea if you thought you were quoting me or what but in the first post I said using 3D models and pic as ref is okay in my book. "I USE REFERENCE". I use it all time. I don't trace the reference, I just "reference" the reference.

@Fred and Greg
Yeah. I'm hating on Raffaele Ienco. But I promise this is making me strive to be a better artist. I think it's bad for business, but I'm sure hand drawing animators said the same thing when Pixar busted onto the scene.

@rayman (yeah you don't even get a capitalized name)
I hear your favorite book is Polly Pocket: The Adventures of a Pocket Princess (nuff said).

@everyone
For some reason everyone seems to think I'm on this dude because he uses models for art. If he came out and said I use 3D models then I would have never even posted this thread. Everybody else that uses models admits to it and some show you up front. Sean Gordon Murphy posted the motor cycle model from Punk Rock Jesus online. Later when I saw the pick he did with it I was impressed. He was up front about his and I respect him for that. Raffaele Ienco says he draws the art himself and doesn't admit to using 3D models even when asked about it. To add to the conspiracy the post on the image comics forum where these 2 guys were asking him what program he used to create the comic is suddenly gone. Only pictures from a few months ago remain on the forum thread. I don't think Raffaele Ienco is an Image Forums Moderator so that means Image Comics themselves didn't want people posting that he uses 3D models heavily. I just think he is trying to get one over on us.

[Greg G.]

@Fred and Greg
Yeah. I'm hating on Raffaele Ienco. But I promise this is making me strive to be a better artist. I think it's bad for business, but I'm sure hand drawing animators said the same thing when Pixar busted onto the scene.

Traditional hand animators like those at Walt Disney?

You need to familiarize yourself with Rotoscoping, which was behind most of Disney's successful films.

Year 1937 was the beginning of the Walt Disney's rotoscoping milestone when they released "Snow White." This film was groundbreaking because Disney decided to rotoscope some characters while classically animating the others. Since then, there has been many films and television shows that use rotoscoping and it has become a very popular practice. Now, instead of having to trace a movie frame by frame, the advancements in technology allow even us to rotoscope a film.

At the end of the day, your boss doesn't care if you get to work by walking, riding a bicycle, taking the bus, or driving a car. All your boss wants is for you to be at work regardless of what crutches you use to get there.

[Anthony Hochrein]

Traditional hand animators like those at Walt Disney?

You need to familiarize yourself with Rotoscoping, which was behind most of Disney's successful films.



At the end of the day, your boss doesn't care if you get to work by walking, riding a bicycle, taking the bus, or driving a car. All your boss wants is for you to be at work regardless of what crutches you use to get there.

Yep. They want it done. Period. We can noodle when we retire on the French Riviera and do nothing but sip coffee while smoking cigarettes and oil painting all day long.
Speaking of rotoscoping, one of my all time favorite animated movies is Bakshi's Fire & Ice, which was rotoscope city, but totally rotoscoped. I remember how disillusioned me and my young aspiring illustrator friends were when we found out Snow White and the Blue Fairy were rotoscoped. But hey, those human figures are the toughest figures to do with that sort of fluidity, especially on a deadline.

This post has been edited by Anthony Hochrein: Feb 27 2012, 05:47 PM

[Anthony Hochrein]

@Anthony Hochrein
Bro. Calm down. No one here said using reference is a bad thing. I have no idea if you thought you were quoting me or what but in the first post I said using 3D models and pic as ref is okay in my book. "I USE REFERENCE". I use it all time. I don't trace the reference, I just "reference" the reference.

I can't calm down! I NEED MY MEDS!

[BaneBrookStudios]

Geez. Greg just let it go, bro. It was an analogy for christ sake. At no point did I try using Disney's animation team to prove anything I have previously said in this thread but you chime in with animation history... I missed the point. You must have wanted to be a lawyer when you were a kid.

We have already established that it is more important to get the book done then how it is actually made. Despite my misgivings about this topic, the court has spoken. But no one says anything about Raffaele Ienco not being open about how the art is created. What is he hiding, "trade secrets"? Hardly, there are other people using 3D models already so I can't see how that applies. On top of that nearly everyone here has said that the art in his book doesn't even look that good.

Bottom line, the dude should be up front about the art in his book.